Date

Treating Founder (Chronic Laminitis) without Horseshoes
Guest book posts, 2005

Gretchen Fathauer's replies are in RED.

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Hi! My name is Anna, I'm from Moscow, Russia. My horse got terrible founder with the bone pressing almost to the frog from the inside. In the middle of July we cut the sole of the hoof to let the blood pressure go down and after 1 week of curing the cuttings we shoed her in heartbars, without latex. Halla had these horseshoes for 4 months. Once a month they were removed and her feet got trimmed. After these 4 months she started to trot a little - a lunge-circle at a time. In early December we took off the shoes and now trim her every 2 weeks. It took only 1 week to accustom her to going barefoot, and by the end of the second week, she could trot again. Now only 1,5 months passed and she can trot quite a lot, and even gallops! We go carefully with that--I don't let her run too much, but the fact of the matter is that it's me not letting her run, and not her looking upset and moving around like over broken glass! So I'm quite happy to follow the barefoot method of treating founder :) Thanks a lot for your marvelously informative site!

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I really enjoy your website. I am just learning about horse care and want to know as much as I can in day to day care. Right now I am studying about foot/hoof care since so many things can stem from poor or inadequate care. When I do study about anything related to animals I try to be thorough. Thank You for your articles. Sincerely, Rhoda Stilley My email address is:mamamia04@charter.net

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Thank goodness for an attentive owner such as yourself. I work as an equine vet assistant and I can't tell you how many horses we see a year that founder. No one that I know of has taken the time to document each and every step of the way. Email me if you would like and I can share some horror stories with you. Tammy (leaningpines@netzero.com)

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I hit the jackpot tonight, looking for the way to get a badly atrophied frog on the ground. Between your web site and the Ironfree hoof website, I feel I can communicate to both my vet and farrier the reason I want my horse barefoot and trimmed frequently. The most important thing I saw tonight is that the heel that is underslung is also too high, and the reason the whole hoof appears to be migrating forward. I am excited to know that there is hope for my quarter horse mare, and I am committed to learning to trim her myself if I can't get the results from the people I am currently working with. I will give these web addresses to both of the fine gentlemen who have been trying to help. The bar shoes with the silicone filler, which have worsened an underlying thrush condition, came off 4 weeks ago. The farrier will be out Friday to trim again, and I hope to convince him to refer to these web sites first. If you have any advice on growing the frog, in addition to what I have seen here tonight, please contact me at your earliest convenience at sjbasr@aol.com Thank-you in advance, Stacey Brown

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I am a mini horse trimmer from Arizona. Lately I have been getting lots of calls for sore-footed horses. In most of the cases they are horses in the beginning stages of laminitis. I am very impressed with the simplicity of the trims you recommend, as this is the way I trim all of the horses in my care. I wish that more farriers would realize the importance of following mother nature's lead. After all, she has been taking care of horses far longer than we have. Thank you for such a useful site. Susan M.

Are these easy keepers on rich diets? It's disheartening that they are having laminitis even in the dead of winter...

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I too am having problems finding the web site. I have a four year old quarter mare that had an allergic reaction to her annual vaccinations, which resulted in a fever of 105 and laminitis. I don't believe the rotation is severe since the worst she ever was was not wanting to turn on her front feet. She still is pretty mobile, but walks as if she is stone bruised. She grows heel real fast, and we are trimming her every three weeks. She does have shoes on backwards now and it seems to have relieved the pressure and she is walking better. I would like to read what you have to say about curing without shoes. Another concern of mine is what to feed her. She has been on hay pellets since she was born. Is this too hot for her condition. Thanks Ronni e-mail is: hrslvr15@hotmail.com

You are on my founder web site. Just click HERE for my homepage. Don't assume you are not going to get much rotation. Things can deteriorate pretty fast at times. You need to get her hairline slopes at 30 degrees, even if there is not enough vertical toe height for the toe to touch ground in the front. An illustration on club foot, but it is the same principle:

I think a dose of activated charcoal could be a help as well. See more in Section 10 about why. She has had an intestinal disturbance severe enough to result in a massive die-off of benign intestinal bacteria. As these bacteria putrefy in her gut en masse, toxins are released, which can result in laminitis. My Jiaogulan Page is also of interest.

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I have looked over your photos and tried to copy some to speak with my vet, unable to do so, is there a secret? Also, any help for our mare that has severe founder, left foot detached from laminae and tissue decaying, and today our vet will try the tenotomy to save her if possible. I would love to explain the entire issue, what created the problem and what was done and the results and see what you think. Do you have any help for a top farrier in my area, I am 30 miles northeast of Seattle, Washington, called Monroe, but do not refer the farrier to me without checking, I now have two horses destroyed by three farriers in my area and I am at a total loss--the vet and farrier never agree, I have to choose between them, and I never know what to do. I try to balance out each one's position, try to get them to communicate and come to an agreement, and time passes as each pressures me. I have traditionally thought the farrier knew more, and yet I now am in serious shape. The horses are Hannoverians from Germany, the top Dressage lines, Absatz, Woermann, Wenzel, MonCheri (Mont du Cantal is the sire of my lovely mare, she is a one in a million, got 85% on first dressage test, and today we are probably faced with having to soon put her down. She is 100% fine except the left foot, and a bit of a problem on the right, but not hopeless. She has fought to survive, with so much courage and will you really will not believe it. I am at the lowest point in my life to watch this, and if you have anything to recommend, please, ASAP call or email.

Thank you, Sherrie W
woodscreekfarm@comcast.net phone (360) 794-4416 or (360) 805-0594 Thank you.

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What a useful site for us to catch up on the knowledge necessary to understand better what the vet and farrier are recommending and doing for "Peg," our Avon Valley Mare. Thanks for taking the trouble to research the subject so thoroughly so I can catch up in a morning.

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Hi, I think your web site is very well done and quite informative. I am a working farrier who is always looking for alternatives to conventional treatment of laminitis and founder. I really don't like the idea of using shoes to treat either. Keep up the good work. Mike Olson kandmolson@telus.net

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I have enjoyed your website so much. The transformed farmhouse is a work of art. What a brilliant generous idea to create this secondary market for horse boots, I trust I will find some here. My horse Lazlo is in transition to barefoot—now I know how strong of heart one must be to go forward with this, as my vet has accused me of abusing my horse by not putting shoes back on and alleviating his soreness. A friend lent me some Old Macs, not quite what I want, but gives him back his swagger and fluidity walking across the parking area to the arena, and I'll keep looking for the Boa boots in his size. So thank you for being a great resource and helping Lazlo and me through this. A week ago the vet had just about suggested shipping him to the glue factory. Gari garithompson@mac.com

Gretchen Fathauer's reply--Good grief, the same vet who recommended euthanasia now is troubled by your horse's soreness when he is without boots? Yet he is fluid and forward with them? He doesn't sound like he wants to die just yet! You might call the www.HorseSneaker.com people. They often have deals on slightly used boots people have exchanged for a different size. The speed of rehabilitation varies considerably. The amount of prior damage is one consideration. How good and often your trimming is, how correct your diet is, how much movement the horse is getting, whether or not his hooves get daily exposure to water, and what terrain he is on most of the time...all factor into how fast things can turn around. I urge you to contact Dr. Kellon re diet recommendations based on hay analysis, etc. A lot of people I've sent her way are very glad they got her help. EMAIL Dr. Kellon She is quite active on the equine cushings yahoo group, which offers a lot of nutritional information that is of value even if your horse does not have Cushings. Many foundered horses are insulin-resistant, and you can get a lot of good info on this from the EquineCushings group's discussions and files link. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/

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Thanks so much for the information. I just found out my horses have foundered on grass. I had never seen any horse with it. One of my horses (Java), has it in all four feet. Hopefully with all the information I have gotten, he will recover. I would advise anyone who has horses to get any reading material and a horse owner's veterinary handbook. It has been very helpful, not only about my horses' condition--it has a lot that you would not think of THAT YOU REALLY SHOULD LEARN ABOUT. Thanks to my vet, my book, and your web site I am more confident that I know as much as possible, and hopefully my horses will recover. Thank you. Susan incountrygirl37@yahoo.com If anyone has any suggestions please email me.

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Thank you for your information. I think I would like to become a farrier ;) Kacie Noonan goedekingk@aol.com

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I think you web site is remarkable and very educational for a novice like me. I am so thankful I found your web site. I hope to see more educational updates.

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I was thrilled to find your website. I read many others on baby possums, but I have to say, yours is the most complete and most helpful! Keep up the good work and God bless you! Thanks! (My baby possum will now get the right food and care because of your info!)

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How do you get rid of laminitis without getting the vet? What can help get rid of it?

Gretchen Fathauer's reply--my web site is full of info on this. I need to see a lot more history and know more about the situation before I can recommend anything. Is this an acute case that just came up? Or has the horse been foundered for a long time? If it is grass founder, getting the horse off grass, and back onto hay, and giving a couple of doses of activated charcoal, can help. The new spring grass is often deficient in magnesium; supplementing a little with magnesium oxide (20-3 tsp. a day) can be helpful. However, I know nothing about what your horse is eating and where you are, so this is just a guess. Some people have cross-tied newly laminitic horses in creeks, and brought them hay, for a couple of days. This helps with inflammation. Standing them in cool mud is another approach to bring the heat in their feet down. Do NOT use steroids of any kind. A little bute temporarily is better than steroids, which can actually help bring on a case of laminitis.

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I think and hope, after reading this site, that I can save my horse's life! I seen worse on here and mine is not good but...you have giving me new hope and excitement that I'm not alone or crazy for going to such lengths, not to give up since my horse hasn't, and a special note--he is a grandson to Secretariat! So, if the things I found on this site work..I owe you BIG time! So sick and tired of my vet, shoers and everybody saying...well, you should just put him down! Take him to auction and get a few dollars! How disgusting and heartless! What was it they said in Seabiscuit? "You don't throw a life away, just because it's banged up a little." Truer words were never spoken, and my other favorite: "never say never, and can't is a dirty four letter word." This site is proof there are believers and doers. Tomorrow is a new day, and now I don't have to stand around looking at my horse wishing there was something I could do for him, watching him get worse day by day...now I KNOW how to start helping him. May God bless you in everything you do, for you are helping people save His animals. It's 12 am and I'm so worked up that I don't want to sleep, I want to go outside and get started doing the things I read about here for my horse, "Buff". I can't "Thank You" enough for the info, and I will surely be back in touch, and have photos for future use, to let you know the outcome. This site is fabulous!! And I'm sure my horse will thank you once I get his heels down and hooves ground-parallel! Again...many thanks, and I can't wait 'til morning for the work to start relief on Buff. xoxoxo Andrea Daener, P.O.Box 176, Gonzales, LA.70707 225-205-7979 soononme@cox.net OR PerformingStables@yahoo.com

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I have a fat donkey which I am afraid may founder. A vet has told me foundering can be just a fresh grass allergy. I lock him up for months on end to prevent him from overeating, but then he doesn't get as much exercise as otherwise. Foundering is a real worry. My two donkeys (one thin, one fat) are otherwise great. Sandra Broman http://www.almondhill.com.au

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Very informative. I have an 11 year old 13.2 hand welsh pony that foundered at 6. Very little rotation, and has been fine after the initial founder..(Was taken to the Dupont equine hospital in Va. and x-rayed every 5 weeks prior to trimming for 16 months, and then released for work.) He is using a muzzle and on low carb grain (Buckeye Gro N Win). He has a extremely large cresty neck. He is very fit as my 11 year old daughter rides daily--pony club, hunter shows, cross country events, etc. I am very interested in trying magnesium to reduce his neck.

Gretchen Fathauer's reply--I urge you to do a nutritional consultation with Dr. Kellon. DrKellon@aol.com There is a lot of good info on insulin resistance on the equinecushings list Just adding magnesium may help, but you will get better results with a more precise and comprehensive approach.

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Love the site. I live in England and have a laminitic pony. I looked on your site originally for a treeless saddle. My friends have a Torsion/Darby (?) which they kindly let me use on my cob. They have also just purchased 3 Ansurs. We are definitely impressed with the free movement these saddles allow the horse. Does anyone have a used treeless for sale? I have a synthetic treed saddle, but I feel I shouldn't be using this as I don't want to hurt my horses. I may consider trying a bitless bridle. Will definitely come back to your site for information. Love it. Very informative. Packed with good information.

I have just read the comments on founder (laminitis). My pony didn't come down with laminitis until he was 7 (he's now 9) and lives out on grass 24/7. He is a pet pony, not ridden, and had the farrier trim him every 6-8 weeks. He now has the farrier every 4-5 weeks since having laminitis. My friend lets me use her stable when the grass has a spurt, and he then only goes out for a few hours each day, after my other horses have eaten it nearly bare. When I bring him from my friend's field across the road to my field, I put Boa Boots on, as this saves the small stones and grit getting into his white line. I always pick out his feet first and brush any debris out before putting on the boots. I take the boots off when back on the grass, as I do find that mud sucks them off. Pam McLaughlan - West Midland, England pc004k9569@blueyonder.co.uk

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I think you have a great and informative site. It sure helped me a lot understanding different trimming methods for foundered ponies. I have one. Keep up the good work. Lynda L Richardson hilltoparabians@aol.com

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Thanks for all the great pictures--they really helped me with treatment on my own horse. Carrie Knapp cmlcmk@yahoo.com

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Hi, my name is Sylvia. I am in the great state of Texas. After searching the internet for info on barefoot trimming, I found your web site. I have found it to be very helpful. I can't seem to find a barefoot farrier in my area. So I have tried to find all info on the web. I intend to show it all to my farrier, and perhaps he will want to learn the barefoot trim. Thank you vwgranny@hotmail.com

Gretchen Fathauer's reply--if he is a professional farrier, I am sure he feels he already knows how to trim. This may be a tough sell to ask him to trim differently! Here are a few TX contacts to get you started:

Strasser trimmers:
Rachael Coggins, Alvin, TX, 281-581-2555, chocorio@msn.com
Chris McDonald, Willis, TX, Cell: (936) 494-5232, TexasSHP@AOL.com
Virginia Towles, Austin, TX, virginia@towles.com

Has hosted lots of clinics:
Darolyn Butler, Humble, TX, 281-446-7232, darolyn@swbell.net

In Houston mounted police--several trimmers...
Gregory Sokoloski, Houston, TX, hpdmp3486@sbcglobal.net

Teaches people how to trim at clinics:
Martha Olivo, Crockett, TX, 505-401-4240 or 936-544-1596, hoofgoddess@msn.com

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Hi! I read your page, and I think I learned some, but I think I need a your advice on mine. Can you please email me at jubjub81@hotmail.com and tell me how to ask you a question the proper way. Thanks a million! Kat

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Your web site is very informative. .I'm going to try the trimming method on a foundered pony I've been trimming. Thanks, Boone dvboone2@localnet.com

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Hello, Karen from Essex, England here. I have a lovely horse with navicular and I would like to help him. The vet is going to inject cortisone into his coffin joints next week, we have a very good farrier and he has helped him already keeping toes short and bars trimmed. Love your web-site--very interesting--thank you for sharing your knowledge with others. Hopefully we can keep our lovely boy sound for as long as we can. fiskekaren@aol.com

Gretchen Fathauer's reply--injecting cortisone into joints is not something you can do too many time before the joint is destroyed. This can't be done periodically on a regular basis; it is an emergency procedure only. Hyaluronic acid is a safer choice if you want to keep a joint open. Many people use cortisone injections to speed up fusing hock joints in cases of bone spavin. Keeping the toes short is not as crucial as getting after overlaid and/or impacted bars. Sometimes toes are over-shortened from the bottom, soring the horse.

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Thank you for your information on treeless saddles. I want to purchase a Torsion and have used some of your dealer links. amandajanerowe@aol.com

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Hello from a grateful horse owner! Thanks so much for your invaluable website. If not for finding you one day while looking up laminitis, my vet would have had his way and my horse would be dead! Big Sky is a 17.5 hand Morgan, only 6 years old, who foundered on all four and then sole penetrated on all four hooves. Each time some new nightmare appeared I would look up your site and be heartened by the stories.

Long story short, I did not confine him to his stall or euthanize him (advice from a national vet laminitis expert.) Instead, I have at times forced him to get up 4 times a day from the very beginning and natural horse trim him every week. Four months later he is up on his own 18 hours a day, and with blue board taped to his feet he now makes his way to the pasture to eat with his buddies. I am taking pics and keeping a journal of the whole journey. Many thanks for your help! Genna Murphy genna@advanced-resolution.com

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Hi Linsey, you mentioned my group Healthy Horse, so I thought I would add the URL to your guestbook http://groups.yahoo.com/group/healthyhorse I've read through your website, you have very informative information within it. I'm glad you're a member of my group as you've added very helpful solutions to many equine health issues. Regards, Lori Morgan

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First off, I would like to thank you for sharing your knowledge with others. We adopted a now 20-year-old Arabian gelding last year that had foundered in the past. The current vet said that the founder was not bad, but that was all he could tell me. After getting him home we had him tested for Cushings disease, and he had it. We were told by our vet to try a special feed that Seminole makes called Happy Hoof instead of the Senior feed and oats that the previous owners had him on. We had amazing results within a month's time. For the first time he shed completely out of his long, shaggy coat that has plagued him for so long, and my daughter was riding a couple times a week. He is the most wonderful horse with such a wonderful and willing disposition. We have been battling the laminitis aspect of this disease almost since we brought him home. Unfortunately, about 2 months ago he had a laminitis attack. He got out of his stall and got onto a pasture that we were letting go to seed. He was out all night on the grass seeds. So we called the vet and did all the usual--iced his feet, cut back his grain, which consists of (H.D.F. pellets, Happy Hoof and Beet pulp). He also gets a mixture of timothy and alfalfa and tifton hay. We were also not turning him out on grass. Our vet said that we caught it in time, and he was all right. He did not have a strong digital pulse or heat in the feet. Well, he started getting better, and all of a sudden he was lame as could be. We had the farrier come out for shoeing and he said that he had an abscess, so we treated his foot for an abscess to no avail. The farrier was out again and he said that his soles had dropped, and he pulled the shoes off. He has me putting a mixture of iodine and formaldehyde on the soles of his feet; he said it would help harden them up. He also said not to turn him out. I am very confused and feel terrible that this has happened. I really am trying to do everything in my power to keep this under control. I just don't know what else to do. Do you have any advice?

Gretchen Fathauer's reply--sometimes the soles LOOK more dropped than they are if there are solar abscesses, or wound secretion, building up between the sole and the coffin bone. Do they feel quite firm to thumb pressure, or is there more 'give' than you'd expect? Here are some Strasser certified trimmers in Florida:

Calan Leyendecker, SHP
(Currently Overseas)
Phone: # 011 64 021-044-1126
cmleyen@aol.com

There is a formerly Strasser-certified trimmer in FL as well:
Bob Creel
Morriston, FL
352-486-3553

I do not advocate horseshoes, and although I know that the formaldehyde and strong iodine solution does toughen up soles, please keep in mind that animals can absorb chemicals through their skin. These are very toxic chemicals. I really need to see some hoof photos before I can help you much more.

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Thanks very much for this excellent site. Gave me a completely new look on the problems with founder (which is now my current problem with my 4-year-old pony mare). Never shod, she had a grass founder once a year ago, and next time - one month ago, although both were quite strange: no lameness, no founder stance, nothing - except warm feet and pulsing of the digital arteries. But founder is founder. I was completely furious and didn't know what to do to help her, because I didn't want to shoe her or keep her in a stall for months or treat with loads of drugs, as is frequent practice in my country. Selling her was not an option, either. And then I found this site - it gave me a point to begin with. Now I can tell where my mistakes were. Thank you again. Please, be patient with my not-too-good-English. :)

PS. If you are willing to see and estimate my horse's feet, photos can be arranged. Thanks. :)

Gretchen Fathauer's reply--go ahead and email me some photos. Your English is not all that bad! There are plenty of people living the USA whose command of English is worse!

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Thank you--I learned a lot about laminitis. This is my first time affected by it. I have a donkey that I found out I was spoiling too much. I have changed his feed and am walking him more. The farrier said it was just starting. Your website is a wealth of information.

Gretchen Fathauer's reply--a timely dose of activated charcoal may have helped him. It might still be a good idea. See Section 10 of my web site for info on UAA Gel. The dosing gun from www.pipevet.com is very handy. It doesn't taste all that bad--slightly salty--and it won't be the same battle as trying to get bute into them. You want low heels, backed up breakover, short bars and 30 degree hairline slopes in donkeys, too. Correct hoof form and a diet that is not rich should help him.

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Thank you for all this great information. I have been barefoot trimming my Arab mare (foundered in the spring of 2002) since spring of 2004 and am continuing to see change for the better. There is much to learn and my trim is not perfect, but she is sound and ridable, and much healthier for it.

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Thanks for the great site. I'm a human and horse chiropractor in western N.C. You are spot on on your direction of natural hoof care and, of course, natural care in general. The amount of drugs used in the vet business always amazes me. I've studied mostly the saddle in relation to horses' health, but have also kept up on the shoeing debate. From a book by an old shoer I found a good rule of thumb: the measure from the tip of the frog to the front of the hoof should be 1/3 the distance from the tip of the frog back to where a perpendicular from the heel bulb would intersect the ground.

Also, there is a pad from the inventor of the Ortho-Flex saddle (that is no longer his company) which mitigates the pressure from the head of the saddle and from the outside/ rear portion of the saddle. It consists of 4 oval stiffeners at each corner. The essence of simplicity. His site is www.Thecorrector.net Thanks again for the well done site. Ezra Edgerton, dc ezra34@hotmail.com

Gretchen Fathauer’s reply—the rule of thumb you mention would give too long a distance to the breakover. The 2/3 distance is from the tip of the frog to the back end of the ground plane; from the tip of the frog to the breakover is 1/3. This is the proportion a number of trimmers are teaching, although not all.

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Hello, I wondered if you could tell me what DMG and MSM are and how to purchase them and what is the molecule? I live in Europe and would be interested in learning what they are! My ponies would really thank you--me, too, Thank you for all your information! PS-- My vet says if you love your ponies they have to be hungry! Marti Bruneton patrice.bruneton@wanadoo.fr

Gretchen Fathauer’s reply—MSM and DMG are nutritional supplements available in most health food stores and animal feed stores.

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I have found your site to be a MUST HAVE! of information on founder and the equine foot! I applaud you and your work on the matter. I'm so happy I found this wonderful source of information.

I grieve with you for the loss of your aged horse. I have suffered 4 losses in the last two years. No one knows the real feeling until it comes to them. God bless you is our prayer.

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