Wild Horse Cross-section, from Jaime Jackson's "The Natural Horse."
Treating Founder (Chronic Laminitis) without Horseshoes
Guest book posts, 1998
Gretchen Fathauer's replies are in RED.
Great pages. I would like you look at my home page and the section on horseshoeing also. It is very good also. You have a great page and lots of information. http://www.videoguitar.com/LINDA.htm
Thanks!
Thank you so much for sharing your experiences in such an informative way. You've given me the final boost of courage to try this on my own problem horse.
I very much enjoyed your web site, have been dealing with chronic inflammation of laminae, and was reassured to see someone else uses Dolomite, keeps the horse barefoot, has used iodine on soles, and addresses the problem of abscess..and has mentioned nitro cream--it helps for sure.
Just got Jaime's book today and look forward to reading it. Have only one question--where can I get Horsneakers?
Thanks a great deal on my part and from my mare. Ina M. Ish inaish@emji.net
Gretchen Fathauer's reply:
HORSNEAKERS!!! Removeable boots CUSTOM MADE FROM MOLDS OF YOUR HORSE'S FEET!!
For info: Frank Orza, General Delivery, Tombstone, AZ 85638; 520-457-2546.
Expensive, but they sound like they're worth it! Will post more when I get some photos, etc. Frank developed these for his own foundered horses so they could have the benefits of being barefoot, having mustang-shaped feet, and still be rideable on rocky terrain. Easy Boots and Swiss Horse Boots do have their drawbacks. Frank claims he has had super results making lame animals useable with these. They have excellent shock absorption. They are only put on when you ride--the rest of the time, the horse is kept barefoot. He is a friend of Jaime's, and endorses his ideas on trimming and his research on wild horse feet.
I thought the article was very informative with a logical approach, but the thing that really impressed me was the dedication. Much has been lost because lame horses are sold, traded, or just put down because of the cost, time involved or simply the embarrassment. I certainly take my hat off to you.
Ted Smith, Kentucky
Outstanding web site... You really did your homework...
L.H.E. Ohio...
Gretchen, I don't even know you but am very grateful for the information included. Thanks so much sharing your collected information. It is needed info. I will share with my friends.
Sydnee Miller Gilbert, Arizona
Well, I can't say much more than has already been said in the letters section you have here. Actually, I can say less than many because I haven't had any of the horrible experiences that some have.
The only thing I can say is that this is a wonderfully clear, detailed, and informative site. I will most certainly keep the principles you've discussed in mind whenever I look at a horse's feet in the future.
Now I just want to know if Jamie or Bergy are going to be in my area! I hope that someday I will be able to participate in, audit, or even sponsor a clinic that could be so valuable to so many people!
Thanks for all of your hard work! Laura Randall
Gretchen Fathauer's answer:
To find out about when either Jaime or Bergy are going to be giving clinics or lectures, contact them directly:
Jaime Jackson
Star Ridge Publishing: (870) 743-4603
star@alltel.net
http://www.alltel.net/~star/
Lyle "Bergy" Bergeleen
HoofTalk: 800-826-2651 or 509-467-3455.
bergy@hooftalk.com
http://www.hooftalk.com
What an educational experience for you, but a sad situation in which to learn. Being a Blacksmith/Farrier myself, I encounter regular people with the same situation you were once in. In short I will refer people to your Web Page as an inspiration to them that "something good can come out of a bad situation" with a caring /kind heart.
Respectfully, David A. Vose JUSTANOTHA FARM Union ME 04862 (207)785-4351 (207)785-6302 Fax Email justafrm@midcoast.com
Thank you so much for a truly excellent site. I have been shoeing and trimming my own horses for about five years now. I was fortunate to get started early setting my shoes back under the foot and keeping the toes short, battling the dogma, rigidly maintained by traditional farriers, of never rasping the wall on the outside of the hoof. The work of Redden, Ovenick (sp?), Sigafoos, and a very talented local (So. Pines, NC) farrier, Martin Kenny, have helped me see a better way to help my horses. Still, there is tremendous resistance to change, even in the face of incontrovertible evidence that existing techniques are not working! I found your site to be very clear and well documented. It is most gratifying to have confirmation and corroboration that the shoeing style I have adopted is true and valid for other people and their horses. I really do wonder why the idea of moving the breakover point back is so often touted as a remedial rather than preventive technique. Why wait until something has gone wrong before you do something that will help? Thanks again, Paul Tillery
I really enjoyed your site! I searched and searched for information on founder. Yours was one of the best I have found. Thanks for all of the pictures. They were very helpful. Marsha Giles, Kentucky
Wow, Gretchen, what an amazing page. I have looked at lots on founder, but this is the best I have seen yet. Caroline Tarr, Australia
PS--I've used Pat Coleby's dolomite and it helps a lot.
Gretchen Fathauer's reply--
Caroline--or anyone else who has had experiences with dolomite helping a foundered horse--email me! I am eager to hear more about your experiences!
Hi Gretchen! It was nice talking to you tonight about the Mercedes/Horses. I gave your web address to my daughter. I'm sure she will find it very interesting, as I did. Billie Thon billie@megsinet.net
I think I have just learned more about laminitis/founder on your site than I have in the past 20 years of horse ownership and reading related articles. I am going to immediately try the Dolomite and DMG for my 5 year old Paso Mare who had laminitis without P3 rotation last July. She has the thick cresty neck, shoulder and rump fat pads, and also had swollen udder in 7/97 which went away. I think you are on to something and I wish everyone with a foundered horse would visit this site. Thanks so much for all the work you had to do to present this site to all. Ida Galloway lidag@telisphere.com August 10, 1998 in Enon Valley, PA. God bless Max!!!!
Wow! What a lot of info! I intend to share this with my farrier who (along with a rather closed-mind vet, who means well) is trying to help me save a foundered mare. We assume it's grass founder, but can't be sure. Won't go into the details, but am very grateful for your efforts in providing a wealth of information. Thanks.
Your article is wonderful and I aspire to begin treatment this very day.
Thank you very much for putting together the information you have collected. It was kind of you to answer all the email as well. The vet's explanation didn't help or mean anything until I found your page. Thanks again.
Thank you for your excellent and informative web page. I've currently got two rescued ponies in the stables with chronic laminitis. They came in with extremely long toes, rolled inward walls and forward heels. My farrier (a splendid man) is a devotee of the lower the heels, roll the toe natural system, and got busy. The vet nearly expired when he saw them pottering painfully about. However, 12 hours later they are moving much more fluently (well, at least they are moving voluntarily now), and the older mare's filled legs are starting to reduce. The vet was worried about the farrier having lowered the heel - so I am printing him off a copy of your article. As you may gather I have more confidence in my farrier than my vet! Thanks again - off back to the yard to inject a little more ACP...
Terrific site and info! Thanks for sharing. You should win some sort of prize for such a a useful, informative, and easy to use site. L.J. Askey gave your address to our QH list. I have a mare who is not foundered or diagnosed Navicular, but came to me as a 3YO with really long toes/undershot heels/dropped soles. I have kept her barefoot and trim her toes constantly, but have left the heels alone. She is still a tenderfoot 1.5 years later, so your site is really helpful. Of course have the same trouble, no competent farriers in my rural area, so I do all the trimming myself. I was worried about taking off so much hoof wall when dubbing off the toe, so have been perhaps too conservative in this regard. I will go look at her now with your info fresh in mind. Thanks for a heroic effort and for making it useful to the rest of us. Bravo! -Nancie
Gretchen Fathauer's reply--
You can't just leave the heels alone. In order to get coffin bone support, the frog has to almost touch the ground. The ground surface of the hoof, when the heels are low enough, goes all the way back to the widest part of the frog. The keys are lowering the heels, keeping the toes short and BACKED UP, and all edges well rounded. Do not pare off the sole callous at the toe.
Although I like much that Bergy is doing, this is one area where we disagree. I was relieved to see that Dr. Strasser recommends leaving a crescent-shaped ridge of sole callous at the toe, as I had discovered through trial and error that leaving this sole callous gave more support to the coffin bone, tightened my horse's white lines up, and allowed him to not be sore the first day or so of a new trim, as he was when I "concaved out" his soles at the toes.
(CLICK ON SMALL IMAGES TO SEE LARGER VERSIONS)
Wild Horse Cross-section, from Jaime Jackson's "The Natural Horse."
Recent photo of Max showing how I am now leaving a crescent-
shaped ridge of sole callous behind the white line at the toe.
I still concave out to the white line on the sides, but not at the toe.
(Sabine Kells tells me he still had his heels and bars too
high here, and that his heels are still contracted.)
If your horse's feet are short-toe and high-heel, you will be more prone to get concussion problems, and a rough, short-strided, clumsy gait. I suspect you are taking too much off the sole at the toe. More OK to take off the front of the toe than the bottom.
When you get things right, your horse will be smoother, more sure-footed, and have better posture and movement. Interesting diagram in Mary Wanless' book, "For the Good of the Horse," which shows what far-reaching effects trimming have on the entire body. For graceful, collected movement, you need to get the feet right.
Since I started riding my horse again, I have noticed, of course that he's out of shape from being in mothballs for 5 years. However, he is smoother and more surefooted, and even more surprising, for the first time since I have had him in 11 years, his saddle stays level rather than wanting to turn to the right. Before, I only got that levelness right after he had had a chiropractic adjustment. He no longer stands like he has habitual back pain, as he often did in the past, with "all four feet in a teacup." This stuff pays big dividends!
What a wonderful and informative website! I applaud the time and effort you put into creating it. I'm a farrier who's has been using this type of trim for the past 3 yrs. When I graduated from farrier school 3yrs. ago, one phrase stuck in my head for foundered horses. The instructor said to just make the horse comfortable. I had an old chronic foundered horse to work on and this method just came naturally to me to obtain that goal. The reward was a horse that was sound and rideable with just normal shoes on. No one can improve on nature; just work in harmony with it and everything will fall into place.
Where are you located and how can we reach you? Might have some referrals to send you!
Max is a lucky horse! Thanks, you gave me more than a few last ideas regarding what more we can try with our 32 year old pony who has foundered twice this year. Thank you, Deidre - California
Thank you so much for your comprehensive article.
Just to let you know the two rescues are doing well. Little chestnut escaped today and tootled off at a very promising trot: not what you could call sound, but nicely motoring for an old girl who could barely lay hoof to ground on Tuesday. The old grey is still on ACP to increase bloodflow to her feet and is now fairly sound behind, although her fore feet are still very tender. She has quite pronounced coronary softening to the fore feet for about 2 inches across the front. However, she is now standing, on a deep bed, for most of the day. Any additional suggestions on therapy welcome - she is being X-rayed next wee, and I want as much input as possible for the vet. I'll be insisting he shows the farrier the X-rays. I'm truly grateful for your site, as my farrier is a quiet, inarticulate, chap who studies his subject, but finds it hard to put accross to a doubting professional.
Gretchen Fathauer's comments:
The gray pony standing most of the day, rather than moving around, is not the best scenario. Could you manage to keep her in a soft, sandy arena, with bits of feed scattered about, and the water elsewhere, to encourage movement? Also, I am quite interested in D-Tox, an English-made supplement that is regrettably quite expensive, but sounds very good. For info: D-Tox info
Keep us informed, and glad you're helping these poor ponies! Bless you!
Gretchen, Recently, my beloved dressage mare foundered. We have not been able to determine the cause--probably never will . I have searched for every piece of information on laminitis that I could find. Finding your site was the first piece of good luck that I have had. I've read countless articles on the subject, but yours touched my heart because it came from your heart and your genuine hope that your experiences could help others. I am going to print out copies to give to my vet and farrier. I would like to know where to get the high magnesium salt block, though. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Brenda--Southeast Texas
Gretchen Fathauer's answer:
You get the high-magnesium/salt/mineral/vitamin blocks at feed mills. Or you can get a loose mix that is much the same thing called Purina 12/12.
Best of luck with your horse!
Please sign messages on this board with your email address if you want feedback from me--I don't know where to reach you otherwise. Would like to hear more about your mare, and what is happening with her.
--Gretchen Fathauer gretchenfathauer@ee.net
Your web site is very helpful. I also have horses, and as you know, many problems can arise through horse ownership, and diverse resources are essential when one of our horses has a problem.
Sam White, Australia beaubo@nex.net.au
This is a very interesting and well written site. I have learned a lot about laminitis. We have a mare with a "cresty" neck who often founders at our barn, we will look into some of your ideas.
Gretchen Fathauer's reply:
Keep me informed on your mare's progress!
The vet who developed D-Tox, Nick Larkins, recommended that to get a loading dose of magnesium into your mare, an even better idea than epsom salts is to use bovine I.V. magnesium solution--available at feed stores--and feed it orally. It is a liquid you could mix with feed.
I have also gotten a call from Dr. Dan Pitzen of NuTeam, which has a web site. He had good results on a cresty, obese, foundered horse, giving one of his supplements, and putting a magnetic collar on the horse. He believes the collar did more than the supplements. He is sending us a collar to try, and Ida Galloway will try it on her extremely cresty, obese, foundered mare, and give me feedback on the results. This is another option.
--Gretchen Fathauer gretchenfathauer@ee.net
I very much enjoyed reading about your experiences. My own story with a 13-year-old foundered Morgan named Cardiff who had a 14-degree rotation in his front feet about seven years ago is very similar. After a long frustrating course with my own farrier, I took over much the same as you did. I am happy to report that except for an occasional abscess, he remains completely sound. His hind feet are now normal, and his front feet are similar to your horse, but continue to improve each year. Continued good luck to you and your horse. Diane Walsh in Minot, North Dakota.
Thank you for the most informative and sane article about horses feet that I've read ever. You're doing a great service for horses and the people who love them. Kindest regards, Mary Dougherty and David Plotsky, Los Milagros Foxtrotters, Corrales, NM
Brandon Knox--Thought you had a very complete report on founder.
Many thanks for this invaluable information. It is a credit to you not only for spending the time and effort, but to enable it to be available to us mere mortals is fantastic ! ! Thanks again.
Martin Horne Vapour Command Q.H.Stud Queensland Australia mrhorne@ozemail.com.au
Thanks for the great article on founder. We have a wonderful horse who belongs to my daughter since she was a child. Now her daughter who is seven wants to ride. we are making a copy of this article so our farrier can read this. We love this twenty year old horse. He is our family. He has never hurt us and we are making sure that we are not hurting him. Thanks again. We will let you know how he turns out. Thankfully our farrier thinks along the same lines as this article. By the way, Shashonie, our Appaloosa says thanks, too.
Thank you for taking the time to print this material. My horse has just been declared "Foundered". He is a beautiful American Saddlebred Arab and I love him very much. I printed your material and will read it from the print. I pray that your suggestions will work for Monty. Thank you again. Sincerely, Roni Trehy - vrtrehy@gte.net
Great article...I'm going to review it with my farrier. My horses have been barefoot for up to six years. (I have a four year old who has never been shod). My reasons have been primarily economic, but my farrier has trimmed a "round" foot with short toes, knowing that my horses will not have shoes. He has improved the hoof walls of my big gelding enormously. My horses are Tennessee Walkers. This is fascinating!
I found your story very educational. I have a large Q.H. stallion that is mildly foundered. Gene Miller Luther, OK.
Rather than referring to other's books' you should be putting out one of your own. Your writings are very clear and easily understood, as well as captivating. Thanks for educating me on a subject I'm sure many hold close. I start shopping for my first horse next spring, and am trying to do as much preparing as possible. Ruth Ann Hersh
Thank you for your valuable advice. It all makes so much sense. My 20 year old mare (she has a 3 week old foal) foundered unexpectedly. I was feeding for the foal and forgot her tendency towards founder.
Betty Franklin Melbourne Australia
Very informative site. Although I don't agree that we all should be modeling our trim jobs after those of nature on wild horses. "Wild horses" are just that - WILD. They don't posses all the genetic variations that domestic horses do, and they don't have to live in our pasture environments or work in the areas we subject them to. I was wondering if you have heard of PBM horseshoeing. Proper balance-motion is a patented process that has corrected many of the lameness problems associated with low angles (mainly in the rear hooves) and low heels. Low heels can create an improper geometry within the horses spinal structure. Low heels and angles cause the fetlock to lower, raising the stifle joint, which in turn raises the hips. All these changes will cause the back to sway, force the horse to raise its head and cause the front shoulders to open up. Signs can be hunters bumps, hips higher than wither, "U-neck", differences in stride, and some are internal and invisible to the eyes. Tony Gonzales patented this kind of balanced shoeing in the California area. For all the work he had done in the area a local University gave him a skeletal structure of a 20 year old mare that had had low heels and angles that WERE NOT 58-60 degrees (rear feet). This horse had gone most of its life with low heels and average toes. Problems that were easily visible were the fusing of several vertebrates (due to increased arch), the bones in the wither area had also rubbed together so much that they had also fused. The upper portion of the scapulas had contacted bone and worn flat. So just because the wild horses have low heels doesn't mean that we should treat ours this way. PBM shoeing tries to leave 2 inches of heal (meas. from the bulb down) and it ensures angles in the high 50's (rear) to keep proper spinal and shoulder geometry and fluid motion. I remember how you commented about how your saddle kept falling to the right every time you rode. The explanation is easy - if the left rear hoof had a lower angle (and less heel) then the left hip bone will have a tendency to bounce upward more than the right and when the horse walks, he/she will continuously throw your saddle to the right until the hooves are balanced from side to side. PBM shoeing will be a thing of the future because its the right thing to do. I would love to hear your comments and if you want to know more about PBM shoeing then just let me know. Michael S Dennis Pendleton, OR
Gretchen Fathauer's response to Michael Dennis' post:
'Very informative site. Although I don't agree that we all should be modeling our trim jobs after those of nature on wild horses. "Wild horses" are just that - WILD. They don't posses all the genetic variations that domestic horses do, and they don't have to live in our pasture environments or work in the areas we subject them to. I was wondering if you have heard of PBM horseshoeing.'
Yes, I have.
'Proper balance-motion is a patented process that has corrected many of the lameness problems associated with low angles (mainly in the rear hooves) and low heels.'
If you BACK UP THE TOES in addition to lowering the heels, you end up with a decent toe angle. This shortens the toe, effectively, reducing leverage and easing breakover. This shortening of the toe lever actually solves a lot of problems.
'Low heels can create an improper geometry within the horses spinal structure. Low heels and angles cause the fetlock to lower, raising the stifle joint, which in turn raises the hips. All these changes will cause the back to sway, force the horse to raise its head and cause the front shoulders to open up. Signs can be hunters bumps, hips higher than wither, "U-neck", differences in stride, and some are internal and invisible to the eyes.'
Let's not see low heels as inevitably meaning low angles. IF YOU BACK UP THE TOE AS PER BERGY'S FORMULA, this can be avoided. If you continue to trim often and back up toes, you will soon need to back them up less as things realign internally, making for a shorter distance from front to back over time.
'For all the work he [Tony Gonzales] had done in the area, a local University gave him a skeletal structure of a 20 year old mare that had had low heels and angles that WERE NOT 58-60 degrees (rear feet).'
If they had backed up her toes as Bergy does, I bet they could have been in the high 50's.
'This horse had gone most of its life with low heels and average toes. Problems that were easily visible were the fusing of several vertebrates (due to increased arch), the bones in the wither area had also rubbed together so much that they had also fused. The upper portion of the scapulas had contacted bone and worn flat.'
I agree that low heels and longish toes are a bad scenario. You have to also back up the toes. Horses I have trimmed, or whose owners are trimming as I advocate, actually are seeing better carriage, neck shape and movement.
'So just because the wild horses have low heels doesn't mean that we should treat ours this way. PBM shoeing tries to leave 2 inches of heal (meas. from the bulb down) and it ensures angles in the high 50's (rear) to keep proper spinal and shoulder geometry and fluid motion.'
With the toes backed up as per Bergy's formula, you can get toe angles where you want them, even with low heels.
'I remember how you commented about how your saddle kept falling to the right every time you rode. The explanation is easy - if the left rear hoof had a lower angle (and less heel) then the left hip bone will have a tendency to bounce upward more than the right and when the horse walks, he/she will continuously throw your saddle to the right until the hooves are balanced from side to side.'
Max's saddle turned to the right for years when he was being shod by others. Despite his toe angles measuring the same in the back. He has leveled out since I started doing my wild horse trim. He uses his back end better. I am not entirely sure why, but maybe copying nature is not such a bad idea! Many wild horses move really well. No sense in reinventing the wheel.
An objection I have to getting your ideal toe angle with higher heels is this--with high heels, and a standard open keg shoe, the heels will really sink into softer ground, as there is a smaller area touching the ground and supporting the horse's weight in the back. To solve this problem, you can use bar shoes. Bar shoes can be very slippery out on trail, though! I solve the problem of the heels sinking too far into soft ground by having the frog almost touching the ground, too, giving a larger area of support in the rear. This may sound like a small point, but it actually is important. Excessive sinking in of the heels stresses the leg by hyper-extending the fetlock joints during the stride. This effect is made worse by the leverage of long toes.
--Gretchen Fathauer
A lot of good info. I lost my quarter horse to years of foundering, and now I have a 6 yr old quarter Morgan with the same problems. It just makes me sick to see him like this. He is bare foot right now, but in a lot of pain. He is on 2 bute twice a day, for a long time now, just can't be good for him. I'm hoping that by showing the vet and the farrier this article that maybe we can come up with a better plan--all ideas welcome.
Carol in wisc
I have not yet had time to review all the material. It seams that a lot of your time and money went into finding solutions to the foundering problem.
We have a Miniature that got into the grain and we fear that she has foundered and we needed more info.
Thanks, Gretchen, and to all that contributed to your site.
Bud Edwards whllama@aol.com
I found this information very interesting and worthy of further research. I would like to read more about this treatment.
I loved your thorough report on laminitis and trimming. I've been doing my own Bergy-style trimming with barefoot, too, and my horses' feet are getting lots better. Marjorie Smith, Jamestown RI
THANK YOU for this wonderful site and your exhaustive research; you not only saved me a lot of time, but I'm sure I would not have been as thorough as you were. I lost a mare to founder 4 years ago. Another old mare foundered last spring, and although I now knew enough to get my vet to be more aggressive in treating this one, I still felt he wasn't very up-to-date in his knowledge. So I searched on the web and stumbled onto your site. I am fortunate to have a farrier who is willing to try different things, so we pulled the reverse shoes the vet had suggested (which weren't helping) and trimmed in a way somewhat similar to the mustang trim ( I need to get the book and have my farrier read it, and then maybe we can do even better) and I gave her everything I could think of: vitamin C, MSM, DMG, dolomite...and took away all her feed. Our only turnout area was grass, so we turned her out only part of the day and hand walked her periodically when she was stall-bound. Anyway, the short version is: she improved rapidly on this regime (no bute at all) and is now pain-free and frisky. I have taken her off all the supplements, but am keeping her thin. I guess the real test will be in the spring when the new grass pops up again--I'll be very careful about letting her access it. Xrays showed rotation around 7% in one and slightly more in the other fore foot. Perhaps she was going to get better anyway, but your experiences and references made so much sense that I'm certain that is what saved her.
So THANKS again, and I'll be referring others to the site.
(My vet recently asked what he had prescribed for this mare that worked so well...he unfortunately was not so interested when I indicated that we didn't follow his program of bute and reverse shoes. He's the best vet available, and DOES CARE, but I assume his busy practice keeps him from keeping up, and he just does what he was taught in vet school.)
mec14@juno.com
Gretchen Fathauer's reply:
I'm really glad to hear I was able to help your horse through my web site. When you say you "took away all her feed," I assume you really meant all her grain. Hope so! I think the supplements you had her on are also good prevention, and I keep my guys on them all time, although on lower, maintenance doses for just prevention.
It is a very educational site and since I am doing a science report on the hoof of the horse, so this site was very helpful. One of the horses at my barn foundered, but it was actually a birth defect. This site really helped me understand what is happening to him, Thanks
I find the article very interesting and thorough. I will be looking into many of the points brought up to improve my understanding of this all too present problem. Chester Horton, Farrier; Chester Horton Horseshoeing
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